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Reviewing a post I made in 2009...

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,959
    edited November 2022
    Scot said:
    Kyleran said:
    I was an Argoninan, terrific in game back story about the discrimination we still faced by our former slave masters.

    Only disappointment was there wasn't an option to kill the NPC who was scorning me while belittling my people, but definitely a few opportunities to betray them.


    I have never heard anyone complaining about the stories forming early experiences in ESO, all are good, where they seem to go adrift is in the expansions where many people say the stories seem very similar. It is hard to maintain a consistently high level of writing, games are harder than novels I think because the demands of the game impact the writing.

    But ESO did not go down the WoW route thankfully, we saw the like of Susie a long time WoW lore fan throw her hands up in despair and saying she was ignoring new lore releases. I heard that echoed back in my old WoW guild a few times. WoW consistently put the cart before the horse, gaming before lore, ESO has rarely done that.
    By good, you mean only in terms of MMORPGs.  Video games in general offer a lot better stories in other genres.

    Once you've experienced narratives like Hellblade, Disco Elysium, or Life is Strange: True Colors, you realize how archaic (*at best*) story content in MMORPGs is.

    If you're looking for a narrative driven adventure, MMORPGs are one of the last genres I'd recommend, down there with TCGs.
    MMORPG's compete with so many other genres that do something better than them, but as a gestalt no other genre can beat a MMORPG for types and depth of play. The problem is that modern MMO have moved away from that broad and in-depth play. They hardly bother with lore or don't have dungeons or PvP. When you compare them to other genres all they can say is "we have multiplayer". Well MOBA and BR has multiplayer, that is not enough. To my mind this is why MMORPG's as a genre is struggling to survive, they are not giving players something that makes them say "Only MMORPG's give me all this".
    TheDalaiBombaAlBQuirky
  • TheDalaiBombaTheDalaiBomba Member EpicPosts: 1,372
    Scot said:
    Scot said:
    Kyleran said:
    I was an Argoninan, terrific in game back story about the discrimination we still faced by our former slave masters.

    Only disappointment was there wasn't an option to kill the NPC who was scorning me while belittling my people, but definitely a few opportunities to betray them.


    I have never heard anyone complaining about the stories forming early experiences in ESO, all are good, where they seem to go adrift is in the expansions where many people say the stories seem very similar. It is hard to maintain a consistently high level of writing, games are harder than novels I think because the demands of the game impact the writing.

    But ESO did not go down the WoW route thankfully, we saw the like of Susie a long time WoW lore fan throw her hands up in despair and saying she was ignoring new lore releases. I heard that echoed back in my old WoW guild a few times. WoW consistently put the cart before the horse, gaming before lore, ESO has rarely done that.
    By good, you mean only in terms of MMORPGs.  Video games in general offer a lot better stories in other genres.

    Once you've experienced narratives like Hellblade, Disco Elysium, or Life is Strange: True Colors, you realize how archaic (*at best*) story content in MMORPGs is.

    If you're looking for a narrative driven adventure, MMORPGs are one of the last genres I'd recommend, down there with TCGs.
    MMORPG's compete with so many other genres that do something better than them, but as a gestalt no other genre can beat a MMORPG for types and depth of play. The problem is that modern MMO have moved away from that broad and in-depth play. They hardly bother with lore or don't have dungeons or PvP. When you compare them to other genres all they can say is "we have multiplayer". Well MOBA and BR has multiplayer, that is not enough. To my mind this is why MMORPG's as a genre is struggling to survive, they are not giving players something that makes them say "Only MMORPG's give me all this".
    It's what happens when you strip almost everything away that isn't dedicated towards herding players, like cattle, along predefined leveling and gear pathways as efficiently as possible.

    It's design by numbers, and it's clear in many instances it lacks passion and creativity.
    AlBQuirkyAmarantharScot
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,849
    Vanguard was IMHO the ideal example for a game with longterm motivation:

    - lots of classes and races

    - complex classes with lots of options that took time to master

    - interactive combat that kept you on your toes (well, it depended a bit upon class)

    - huge gameworld to explore

    - great dungeon designs

    - great raid designs

    - excellent crafting sphere with crafting classes etc, though they didnt nail the balance with raids

    - diplomacy as another area of advancement


    AlBQuirkyTheDalaiBombaMadBomber13Scot
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,959
    Vanguard was IMHO the ideal example for a game with longterm motivation:

    - lots of classes and races

    - complex classes with lots of options that took time to master

    - interactive combat that kept you on your toes (well, it depended a bit upon class)

    - huge gameworld to explore

    - great dungeon designs

    - great raid designs

    - excellent crafting sphere with crafting classes etc, though they didnt nail the balance with raids

    - diplomacy as another area of advancement
    I did not think quest crafting or quest diplomacy went into even mid-level? I only wanted to continue with the diplomacy ones as crafting is not my thing. But it was an extraordinary idea and shows that MMOs can be made many ways. We are in an age of executive rather than designer led games, for MMOs that means there is only one way, the "best" way to do any element of gameplay.

    This also harkens to my previous post, MMOs are capable of bringing in a truly diverse set of gameplay into one game, something for everyone. 
    AlBQuirky
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,849
    Why, both crafting and diplomacy definitely could have been improved even further, yes.


    But crafting was really good. There have been highlevel crafting quests and also raidlevel crafting quests.

    Mostly it wasnt sufficiently balanced with the raids. You could craft some intro raid gear, but nothing that competed against higher raid gear. So you could give people some great intro gear for raids but for that they had to raid first. It wasnt really making too much sense.

    The main function for raids was really the consumeables. Especially the Mithril Runes of Health. Tanks absolutely needed those.

    All in all crafting was a very complete sphere. I had six maxlevel or close to maxlevel crafters when Vanguard shut down. No wait, actually I had seven. That was because of how the european server went dead and I started an american character which in the end would also be a crafter. So I ended up with two weapon smiths.


    About diplomacy, I really dont like card games. In the last year of Vanguard I finally decided to make my main a highlevel diplomat but I only got to level 20 or some such. As I understand it, from that on it was simply a boring grind for reputation with all factions.

    The main issue about diplomacy was really that you had to get like seven or so cards and then you could beat all opponents, without ever changing the deck. So there was no real challenge.

    However diplomacy also was mandatory. To get into raiding, you needed those area buffs, and for that you needed maxlevel diplomats.


    So yeah, there definitely was room for improvement.
    Scot
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,388
    If I may interject here, Scot and Adamantine, EQ's crafting pissed me off because it was "character level" based. In other words, it was tied to "killing Mob" experience. Was Vanguard's similar, or were they very separate paths to take?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,959
    edited November 2022
    AlBQuirky said:
    If I may interject here, Scot and Adamantine, EQ's crafting pissed me off because it was "character level" based. In other words, it was tied to "killing Mob" experience. Was Vanguard's similar, or were they very separate paths to take?
    These were separate but not independent, so the zones you operated in were dependent on level and therefore the crafting quests you could take were dependent on level, but I don't think you had to be a certain level. I do not think mob parts were used, which would be a firmer level tie in. I think Adamantine will know more, I only remember it sketchily, it is so long ago.
    AlBQuirky
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 3,495
    Mendel said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    kitarad said:
    You could never set a backstory in Vanguard, so its not a relevant feature ! :p

    It sounds nice, but I dont remember any of my games ever having this option.
    You can in City of Heroes. I had some really elaborate ones.
    Yes, CoH had a great "backstory" feature. I had fun sitting in Atlas Park (or Galaxy City) and just reading hero backstories. Some had me rolling on the floor :)

    Is it my faulty memory, or did EQ have backstories in early 2000's? I thought it did, but I'm not sure.

    What EQ DID have that I enjoyed was a different starting city for nearly all 15(?) starting races. I wasted so much time exploring each one with a new alt  character :)

    Anyway, My name is AlBQuirky and I'm an altoholic."

    I believe you are correct, AlBQ.  EQ1 did have a 'backstory' page that others could see when they ID'd you.  It was a royal pain to enter, and had very bare minimum editing tools.  It's not there anymore; I don't know when they removed it, either.  It was probably one of the many times they redid the inventory interface, but which one is a mystery to me.




    Is there a difference between "backstory" and "bio" when it comes to characters?


    For myself, I use those terms differently. If it is written up only as a narrative of the character's origin I consider it backstory. Should it go beyond that I feel it a bio.
    For it to be "bio", don't you have to be able to play it in the game? 
    The way I see that, if you have a backstory of troubles with Orcs, and if you always try to play to defeat Orcs, that works. 
    It would be nice of Characters got tiered titles for doing things in-game that could fit in with your bio. 

    Of course, Themepark designs aren't going to allow you to "specialize" like that. And I don't want to say that dirty word that begins with an "S", as I'm getting the feeling some around here think it fits me, too. 

    It can, but needn't.

    I have no idea what "S" word you are referring to.
    AlBQuirky
  • mekheremekhere Member UncommonPosts: 61
    My English is bad.... But was I wrong? 


    "I hate MMOs is because they used to be good when they were complex and hard back in 2003 and before. Then WoW came along and dumbed down the genre so now all we have is a load of stupid WoW clones. Frigging I played WoW once, it sucked, I don't need to play it again and again. You end up going through the same process of leveling your characters, tutorial 1 - 10 areas and having to grind for a month just to get to the game you want to play. Frigging before WoW all the MMOs were innovative and UNIQUE. We had Planetside, Star Wars Galaxies (Pre CU) and Everquest, UO, EVE Online and Dark Age of Camelot all doing different things. Now all we have is WoW and WoWhammer and Age of Conan and Lotro all doing the same thing and they all suck compared to how WoW did it.

    Frigging theres no death penalty anymore, no crafting anymore, no sense of there being a seamless world anymore. Theres no complexity, everyone looks the same and all cookie cutter classes. Games like EVE and SWG in 2003 were expanding beyond the flawed class concept and all we've done is gone back. Planetside introduced 300people + battles for an FPS and it was amazing. However SOE ruined the game with patches and a crap expansion so everyone left. However all we've done is gone back in the FPS genre because of the shitty consoles.

    This is why I'm sick of MMOs and SWTOR looks like another WoW clone but with the annoying talking shit Bioware puts in all their games. They're all linear these days with linear built worlds so everyone gets to end level and then the rest of the world is dead. Content becomes about the grind and once you're end level then you grind content for gear instead of levels. Frigging again EVE and SWG Pre CU stopped this by having non linear worlds where quests are about fun and not rewards. Everyone was doing different content at the same time so no content was empty because it let you play the game at your own pace without levels. Frigging you could jump into Galaxies and EVE and frigging play with your friends straight away, but in WoW you have to grind for a month to get to them.

    I'm sick of how the genre has gone backwards and it's all because of the retarded casual fad that is happening right now."
    This is the flawless example of how communism works on paper and not in real life. You miss forced socialism, and huge social gatherings. You want social progression. A sandbox prison. You want a small scale no choice pvp environment. We all miss it too. When crypto finally pays us all to pvp and game all day, we can finally go back to the forced currency sandboxes. One currency will rule them all and the player base will fight for only one currency and finally concentrate the world into one game where we can enjoy being with people yet again.  
    AlBQuirky
    Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. 
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