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Quests in a Sandbox World

AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,331
edited October 2022 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
People have made the comment that Sandbox games are harder to play because without Quests, there's no direction. 

I don't subscribe to that thinking. I think a good Sandbox game would simply change the way you get "quests." 
Instead of going to some NPC and picking up a rinse-and-repeat quest, you pick up your quests by playing the game. 

You hear NPCs say that something happened or they need a certain resource, that's a quest.
That NPC may even be a "town crier" (UO had them). 
You go to a dungeon, and see a wall carving with either stories or distinctive images, that's a quest. 
Rewards would be included in the drops and chests, etc. 

There are loads of ways for a game World to set in motion things, quests, for players to do. And adding in new stuff into the existing world can keep such a game very interesting for a very long time. 

Once upon a time....

AlBQuirkydeniterBrainyPhaserlight
«134

Comments

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,959
    edited October 2022
    I agree, the whole lead me by my hand quest-play is overdone. But some structure helps, you could have some traditional in city questing and get told "Once out in the wilds if you don’t keep a look out, there is no knowing how many quests you might miss."

    Then it is down to how obvious they are when you do get them what amount of notification do you get? A ping and on the quest menu? An arrow showing you where to go? A light trail leading you to your destination? An instant travel to hand the quest in? You can go way too far with the hand holding.
    AlBQuirkyAmarantharUwakionnaPhaserlight
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,388
    edited October 2022
    Some direction is needed, for me. I don't know the "new world" and what the developers decide what is what. Do they have "normal materials?" Do they use "real world" logic and physics? What are the rules about magic, if it has that? What do the abilities and skills do in terms of game play?

    For me, some direction is needed :)

    [edit]
    PS: Some trial and error can be fun, but that usually has high penalties for failure.
    AmarantharScotBrainyPhaserlight

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,331
    edited October 2022
    AlBQuirky said:
    Some direction is needed, for me. I don't know the "new world" and what the developers decide what is what. Do they have "normal materials?" Do they use "real world" logic and physics? What are the rules about magic, if it has that? What do the abilities and skills do in terms of game play?

    For me, some direction is needed :)

    [edit]
    PS: Some trial and error can be fun, but that usually has high penalties for failure.
    A game should allow the player to know the basics. Either from the website or under the lists of items to make something in-game, or whatever the case may be. 
    I think that using RL names for things is advantageous to the intuitiveness of a game, but adding new and mysterious things are additional fun, especially in experimentation. 

    When you get into experimentation, that's where players can make discoveries (which they can keep to themselves or share as they wish). 
    There's different ways to discover things.

    - Crafting skills, you try different ingredients (including heat ranges and the like) and see what happens. If you make a discovery, you get a specific thing, and that becomes known to you as a named item (with its ingredients, if applicable). 
    So as a Blacksmith, you might try making new alloys. Once you discover one, then you try it out making different things to see what the results are. 
    One alloy might be good for making magical spell casting wands, rods, and staves. 
    Another might make weapons that are better in some way (hit chance, speed, durability, holding magic, etc.). 
    Then there's also new and fantasy minerals, where you try things out and see what you get in the same way. 

    And the same basic thing for any other skill. Alchemy, for example. 

    As far as trying things out while adventuring or in combat, when you have a brand new ability, try them out and "experiment" on easier targets so that failure doesn't kill you. 
    I mean, who tries out a new and unfamiliar spinning attack move on a Balrog? 

    I'll be posting soon an example of how I think "quests" can work in such a Sandbox World game. 
    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • QbertqQbertq Member UncommonPosts: 399
    Quests are not against any sort of Sandbox play.  The idea of a quest line that leads you from one zone to the next and next that leads to you to last zone is.  Some quests and lore and all of that good stuff is perfectly compatible with a sandbox.  The idea that you can't have nice things in a sandbox is just silly.  Some kind of purity test that plagues Washington and MMORPG.
    AmarantharKyleranAlBQuirkyPhaserlight
  • eoloeeoloe Member RarePosts: 800
    edited October 2022
    In my opinion, what is needed in sandbox is not quest but goals.

    Some players can set their own goals. Some others can't.

    For the latter, spit goals at their face that can fit how they envision their character and properly rewarded.

    Then what is the difference between quest and goals?

    A quest in my book is helped with narrative elements (kill 10 rabbits is no quest but just a boring chore).
    A goal, in the contrary, presents just an end.

    Example:
    Let's say somebody has a wizard type of character. A goal among a list of goals could be "Make a magical discovery!" That could involve experimenting with some ingredients that need to be found in a journey. That could be also the finding of a magical object and understanding its properties. Or witnessing an important magical event at the summit of a legendary mountain. Whatever...

    So, where is the story. Well it is a sandbox. It is organic, dynamic by definition. Would you face monsters on your way? Possibly. Would you cross the undead marsh or enter the spider forest to reach your destination? Your choice. Would you meet by accident other players trying to achieve a similar goal? Possibly. In this case you might be in competition or collaborate. Who is going to keep the magical object or the ingredient? The story builds itself.

    In a true sandbox, just goals are needed and enough obstacles & random events to make them interesting.
    AmarantharcameltosisSensaiAlBQuirky
  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 2,953
    Just put me in the middle of nowhere and let me figure it out. 
    [Deleted User]DibdabsAlBQuirkyTheocrituseoloe

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,331
    edited October 2022
    eoloe said:
    In my opinion, what is needed in sandbox is not quest but goals.

    Some players can set their own goals. Some others can't.

    For the latter, spit goals at their face that can fit how they envision their character and properly rewarded.

    Then what is the difference between quest and goals?

    A quest in my book is helped with narrative elements (kill 10 rabbits is no quest but just a boring chore).
    A goal, in the contrary, presents just an end.

    Example:
    Let's say somebody has a wizard type of character. A goal among a list of goals could be "Make a magical discovery!" That could involve experimenting with some ingredients that need to be found in a journey. That could be also the finding of a magical object and understanding its properties. Or witnessing an important magical event at the summit of a legendary mountain. Whatever...

    So, where is the story. Well it is a sandbox. It is organic, dynamic by definition. Would you face monsters on your way? Possibly. Would you cross the undead marsh or enter the spider forest to reach your destination? Your choice. Would you meet by accident other players trying to achieve a similar goal? Possibly. In this case you might be in competition or collaborate. Who is going to keep the magical object or the ingredient? The story builds itself.

    In a true sandbox, just goals are needed and enough obstacles & random events to make them interesting.
    Yes.
    But there should be some direction too. In a natural, worldly, way that fits an open and interactive game world. 

    Not specific. Rather as a general course of next action. 

    To do this, the game needs deign that helps. 
    The main way is to create a Lore that is based on ancient races, and Dungeon, Ruins, etc., that were built by them each in their own racial style. 
    This could be symbols that are part of their constructions, like serpents or specific star constellations, or it could be distinctive runes, or other things, or combinations. 

    Then also add spheres of power and influence to each ancient race and culture, and in higher goal things, even specific members (rulers, mages, etc.) whose names may be known, or need to be discovered. 

    These are all clues so that Players can get an idea of the kinds of places they should explore when they are "questing" for specific things, be they items, magic, or knowledge. 


    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • DattelisDattelis Member RarePosts: 896
    edited October 2022
    Personally, I hate questing to level and even after over a decade of doing it (nearly 2 decades), I still hate it. I miss the days where quests were really only used for something important, like a questline for an important item or just to unlock a special area. Even the original wow dev team said the original goal of questing was just to hide the fact of moving people from grind spot to grind spot. As with all thing, do something too much and anything starts to build an aversion to it (true with the body and medicine, kids and literally anything, and people with work). Since so many games have done this over the years (not just mmorpgs but some single player games as well), for some people many of the games start to feel the same just with a different coat of paint.
    AlBQuirkyPhaserlight
  • XiaokiXiaoki Member EpicPosts: 3,608
    The only type of quests that wouldn't work on a sandbox are the story quests that portray your character as the hero and savior of the land.

    Dynamic quests could also be good, if done correctly. I know when people here see "dynamic quests" they think of bad examples like Guild Wars 2 but those aren't dynamic quests.
    Something like a town gets attacked and you have to defend the town, that would be a quest. Also, if you fail the town is destroyed. Then you get quests to rebuild the town.

    Sandbox quests could involve everything from killing to crafting and gathering. But no heroes.
    AlBQuirky
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,331
    Xiaoki said:
    The only type of quests that wouldn't work on a sandbox are the story quests that portray your character as the hero and savior of the land.

    Dynamic quests could also be good, if done correctly. I know when people here see "dynamic quests" they think of bad examples like Guild Wars 2 but those aren't dynamic quests.
    Something like a town gets attacked and you have to defend the town, that would be a quest. Also, if you fail the town is destroyed. Then you get quests to rebuild the town.

    Sandbox quests could involve everything from killing to crafting and gathering. But no heroes.
    I agree, but why build quests the same old way as has been done to death? 
    As @Dattelis ;just noted, players are tired of that. 

    Sandbox Worlds offer an entirely different and fresher way to "quest." 
    A better way, in my opinion, since it allows Players to choose their own way instead of being strictly controlled through a fixed experience. 
    Players get to "quest" for whatever their own goals are. 

    This isn't really a "quest system", rather it's a world design that allows players to choose their own quests, and gives them directional nudges in pursuing their goals. 

    This gives players the ability to pursue whatever they want without that "what do I do" feeling to achieve it. 
    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • XiaokiXiaoki Member EpicPosts: 3,608
    Xiaoki said:
    The only type of quests that wouldn't work on a sandbox are the story quests that portray your character as the hero and savior of the land.

    Dynamic quests could also be good, if done correctly. I know when people here see "dynamic quests" they think of bad examples like Guild Wars 2 but those aren't dynamic quests.
    Something like a town gets attacked and you have to defend the town, that would be a quest. Also, if you fail the town is destroyed. Then you get quests to rebuild the town.

    Sandbox quests could involve everything from killing to crafting and gathering. But no heroes.
    I agree, but why build quests the same old way as has been done to death? 
    As @Dattelis ;just noted, players are tired of that. 

    Sandbox Worlds offer an entirely different and fresher way to "quest." 
    A better way, in my opinion, since it allows Players to choose their own way instead of being strictly controlled through a fixed experience. 
    Players get to "quest" for whatever their own goals are. 

    This isn't really a "quest system", rather it's a world design that allows players to choose their own quests, and gives them directional nudges in pursuing their goals. 

    This gives players the ability to pursue whatever they want without that "what do I do" feeling to achieve it. 

    But, a lot of people want that "what do I do" feeling.

    You yourself suggested in the OP that a town crier asks for help from people to deal with some threat.

    That would be a directed "what do I do" type of quest.
    AlBQuirky
  • DattelisDattelis Member RarePosts: 896
    edited October 2022
    Xiaoki said:
    Xiaoki said:
    The only type of quests that wouldn't work on a sandbox are the story quests that portray your character as the hero and savior of the land.

    Dynamic quests could also be good, if done correctly. I know when people here see "dynamic quests" they think of bad examples like Guild Wars 2 but those aren't dynamic quests.
    Something like a town gets attacked and you have to defend the town, that would be a quest. Also, if you fail the town is destroyed. Then you get quests to rebuild the town.

    Sandbox quests could involve everything from killing to crafting and gathering. But no heroes.
    I agree, but why build quests the same old way as has been done to death? 
    As @Dattelis ;just noted, players are tired of that. 

    Sandbox Worlds offer an entirely different and fresher way to "quest." 
    A better way, in my opinion, since it allows Players to choose their own way instead of being strictly controlled through a fixed experience. 
    Players get to "quest" for whatever their own goals are. 

    This isn't really a "quest system", rather it's a world design that allows players to choose their own quests, and gives them directional nudges in pursuing their goals. 

    This gives players the ability to pursue whatever they want without that "what do I do" feeling to achieve it. 

    But, a lot of people want that "what do I do" feeling.

    You yourself suggested in the OP that a town crier asks for help from people to deal with some threat.

    That would be a directed "what do I do" type of quest.

    I think this really depends. A lot of the 'what people want' thing comes down to conditioning. Just like I mentioned before with me, I was introduced to 'questing' when it was only for important stuff, so for me that's how I'll usually see them as no matter how much time has passed. That's obviously different from someone who started 'questing' in say the later years of wow and beyond and is used to something different. When you're conditioned, your 'wants' usually reflect what you're used to. I'm not saying either is better or worse, its just how the mind works for most people.
    ScotAlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,959
    Dattelis said:
    Xiaoki said:
    Xiaoki said:
    The only type of quests that wouldn't work on a sandbox are the story quests that portray your character as the hero and savior of the land.

    Dynamic quests could also be good, if done correctly. I know when people here see "dynamic quests" they think of bad examples like Guild Wars 2 but those aren't dynamic quests.
    Something like a town gets attacked and you have to defend the town, that would be a quest. Also, if you fail the town is destroyed. Then you get quests to rebuild the town.

    Sandbox quests could involve everything from killing to crafting and gathering. But no heroes.
    I agree, but why build quests the same old way as has been done to death? 
    As @Dattelis ;just noted, players are tired of that. 

    Sandbox Worlds offer an entirely different and fresher way to "quest." 
    A better way, in my opinion, since it allows Players to choose their own way instead of being strictly controlled through a fixed experience. 
    Players get to "quest" for whatever their own goals are. 

    This isn't really a "quest system", rather it's a world design that allows players to choose their own quests, and gives them directional nudges in pursuing their goals. 

    This gives players the ability to pursue whatever they want without that "what do I do" feeling to achieve it. 

    But, a lot of people want that "what do I do" feeling.

    You yourself suggested in the OP that a town crier asks for help from people to deal with some threat.

    That would be a directed "what do I do" type of quest.

    I think this really depends. A lot of the 'what people want' thing comes down to conditioning. Just like I mentioned before with me, I was introduced to 'questing' when it was only for important stuff, so for me that's how I'll usually see them as no matter how much time has passed. That's obviously different from someone who started 'questing' in say the later years of wow and beyond and is used to something different. When you're conditioned, your 'wants' usually reflect what you're used to. I'm not saying either is better or worse, its just how the mind works for most people.
    This is why players brought up on modern MMOs see nothing wrong with them and will question any deviation in gameplay from "the modern game" as one studio executive once called it.
    DattelisAlBQuirky
  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 3,107
    I don't need quests in a sandbox game, because like a lot of other people I'm happy forging my own path.  I recently started playing Kenshi and I am loving it - a great sandbox game that has no quests. Quests are often overrated anyway.  You want 10 spiders killed in your basement?  You want me to give a flower to a young woman for you?  You want a delivery taken to the next town over?  Nah, not me.  ;)
    AlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,959
    Dibdabs said:
    I don't need quests in a sandbox game, because like a lot of other people I'm happy forging my own path.  I recently started playing Kenshi and I am loving it - a great sandbox game that has no quests. Quests are often overrated anyway.  You want 10 spiders killed in your basement?  You want me to give a flower to a young woman for you?  You want a delivery taken to the next town over?  Nah, not me.  ;)
    You are underrating quests, and I am sure she was very pleased with that flower. :)
    KyleranAlBQuirky
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 1,482
    edited October 2022
    I generally hate quests in Sandbox MMO's.  However with that said I do think MMO's should have tutorial type quests available.  Especially ones you can look up and select that will step you through a system you are having trouble with.  I think the rewards for these types of quest should only be the thing you are trying to accomplish.

    So for example if you want to make a chair and cant figure it out.  You can select the chair quest and it will step you through until you its complete or you cancel it.  On completion you get a chair.  On the other hand someone else can just make a chair without the quest.  Either way you arrive at a chair.

    I hate non intuitive UI systems that make it hard to know how to do things, or what parts are needed, or how/where to get the parts to make the item you need to do XX thing you want to do in the game.  Nothing worse for me than spending tons of time trying to figure out how to do an extremely simple task.
    AlBQuirky
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,526
    edited October 2022
    My experience with sandbox style MMOs is limited to just EVE, so perhaps it skews my perception.

    Eve is considered a sandbox style game yet it is chock full of quests.

    OK, mostly they come down to NPCs giving players missions to complete certain activities, be it mining, clearing out pirates, transporting good, services or npc passengers around space.

    There's also industrial missions, faction benefiting missions, exploration, and more I'm overlooking I'm sure.

    Yet still it is entirely optional to ever run a single mission, I did them a lot my first 5 years in EVE, but hardly ever in the last 5.

    So I see them as a valuable addition to the game world which can help players seeking some extra guidance on their journey while not negatively impacting players who prefer not to partake.
    AlBQuirky

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,331
    Xiaoki said:
    Xiaoki said:
    The only type of quests that wouldn't work on a sandbox are the story quests that portray your character as the hero and savior of the land.

    Dynamic quests could also be good, if done correctly. I know when people here see "dynamic quests" they think of bad examples like Guild Wars 2 but those aren't dynamic quests.
    Something like a town gets attacked and you have to defend the town, that would be a quest. Also, if you fail the town is destroyed. Then you get quests to rebuild the town.

    Sandbox quests could involve everything from killing to crafting and gathering. But no heroes.
    I agree, but why build quests the same old way as has been done to death? 
    As @Dattelis ;just noted, players are tired of that. 

    Sandbox Worlds offer an entirely different and fresher way to "quest." 
    A better way, in my opinion, since it allows Players to choose their own way instead of being strictly controlled through a fixed experience. 
    Players get to "quest" for whatever their own goals are. 

    This isn't really a "quest system", rather it's a world design that allows players to choose their own quests, and gives them directional nudges in pursuing their goals. 

    This gives players the ability to pursue whatever they want without that "what do I do" feeling to achieve it. 

    But, a lot of people want that "what do I do" feeling.

    You yourself suggested in the OP that a town crier asks for help from people to deal with some threat.

    That would be a directed "what do I do" type of quest.
    The Twon Criers in UO were used for GM Events. 
    The thing about GM Events is that what I'm suggesting can be used very easily for those also. 
    Again, what I'm suggesting isn't a Quest System, but a World Design that helps players follow through on their own choices of personal quests. These can be searching for artifacts from the Lore, all the way down to a Bag of Holding for a little bit of extra storage. 
    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • DarkZorvanReturnsDarkZorvanReturns Member RarePosts: 654
    edited October 2022
    I'm still of the belief the best game design is a sandpark. Themepark enough with a story and quests for those days you just feel like you need some direction, and sandbox enough you can skip all of it when you just want to do what calls you.

    Kyleran said:
    My experience with sandbox style MMOs is limited to just EVE, so perhaps it skews my perception.

    Eve is considered a sandbox style game yet it is chock full of quests.

    OK, mostly they come down to NPCs giving players missions to complete certain activities, be it mining, clearing out pirates, transporting good, services or npc passengers around space.

    There's also industrial missions, faction benefiting missions, exploration, and more I'm overlooking I'm sure.

    Yet still it is entirely optional to ever run a single mission, I did them a lot my first 5 years in EVE, but hardly ever in the last 5.

    So I see them as a valuable addition to the game world which can help players seeking some extra guidance on their journey while not negatively impacting players who prefer not to partake.
    EvE is an example of what I'd call a sandpark. There's scripted content for when you just want a directed experience, but it also takes nothing away from those who completely ignore it and follow their own undirected path.
    BrainyAlBQuirkyKyleraneoloe
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,331
    Dattelis said:
    Xiaoki said:
    Xiaoki said:
    The only type of quests that wouldn't work on a sandbox are the story quests that portray your character as the hero and savior of the land.

    Dynamic quests could also be good, if done correctly. I know when people here see "dynamic quests" they think of bad examples like Guild Wars 2 but those aren't dynamic quests.
    Something like a town gets attacked and you have to defend the town, that would be a quest. Also, if you fail the town is destroyed. Then you get quests to rebuild the town.

    Sandbox quests could involve everything from killing to crafting and gathering. But no heroes.
    I agree, but why build quests the same old way as has been done to death? 
    As @Dattelis ;just noted, players are tired of that. 

    Sandbox Worlds offer an entirely different and fresher way to "quest." 
    A better way, in my opinion, since it allows Players to choose their own way instead of being strictly controlled through a fixed experience. 
    Players get to "quest" for whatever their own goals are. 

    This isn't really a "quest system", rather it's a world design that allows players to choose their own quests, and gives them directional nudges in pursuing their goals. 

    This gives players the ability to pursue whatever they want without that "what do I do" feeling to achieve it. 

    But, a lot of people want that "what do I do" feeling.

    You yourself suggested in the OP that a town crier asks for help from people to deal with some threat.

    That would be a directed "what do I do" type of quest.

    I think this really depends. A lot of the 'what people want' thing comes down to conditioning. Just like I mentioned before with me, I was introduced to 'questing' when it was only for important stuff, so for me that's how I'll usually see them as no matter how much time has passed. That's obviously different from someone who started 'questing' in say the later years of wow and beyond and is used to something different. When you're conditioned, your 'wants' usually reflect what you're used to. I'm not saying either is better or worse, its just how the mind works for most people.
    I agree with that. 
    But lots of gamers are tired of the current quest systems, and even though they may be conditioned, what I'm proposing is a way to gently shift them off of that with something that they can understand based off of that conditioning. 

    At the same time, it's in actuality a completely Sandbox, open world, "make your own quests" system. 
    BrainyAlBQuirkyExsiras

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,331
    edited October 2022
    Dattelis said:
    Xiaoki said:
    Xiaoki said:
    The only type of quests that wouldn't work on a sandbox are the story quests that portray your character as the hero and savior of the land.

    Dynamic quests could also be good, if done correctly. I know when people here see "dynamic quests" they think of bad examples like Guild Wars 2 but those aren't dynamic quests.
    Something like a town gets attacked and you have to defend the town, that would be a quest. Also, if you fail the town is destroyed. Then you get quests to rebuild the town.

    Sandbox quests could involve everything from killing to crafting and gathering. But no heroes.
    I agree, but why build quests the same old way as has been done to death? 
    As @Dattelis ;just noted, players are tired of that. 

    Sandbox Worlds offer an entirely different and fresher way to "quest." 
    A better way, in my opinion, since it allows Players to choose their own way instead of being strictly controlled through a fixed experience. 
    Players get to "quest" for whatever their own goals are. 

    This isn't really a "quest system", rather it's a world design that allows players to choose their own quests, and gives them directional nudges in pursuing their goals. 

    This gives players the ability to pursue whatever they want without that "what do I do" feeling to achieve it. 

    But, a lot of people want that "what do I do" feeling.

    You yourself suggested in the OP that a town crier asks for help from people to deal with some threat.

    That would be a directed "what do I do" type of quest.

    I think this really depends. A lot of the 'what people want' thing comes down to conditioning. Just like I mentioned before with me, I was introduced to 'questing' when it was only for important stuff, so for me that's how I'll usually see them as no matter how much time has passed. That's obviously different from someone who started 'questing' in say the later years of wow and beyond and is used to something different. When you're conditioned, your 'wants' usually reflect what you're used to. I'm not saying either is better or worse, its just how the mind works for most people.
    I agree with that. 
    But lots of gamers are tired of the current quest systems, and even though they may be conditioned, what I'm proposing is a way to gently shift them off of that with something that they can understand based off of that conditioning. 

    At the same time, it's in actuality a completely Sandbox, open world, "make your own quests" system. 
    I'll try to give an example of a Newbie tutorial that would include a brief Dungeon Run, to get new players familiar with this concept. 

    Basic concepts:
    This isn't a game with coded "Groups", and you'll run into other players often. You can ask around for, or Shout out, that you are looking for a "group", if you want. Or if you join a Guild you might have constant access to groups of adventurers. 
    Bank areas are good places to find others. You may even know some of them, after playing for a while. 

    The Lore.
    A deep lore, and part of it is about the ancient Races, Cults, etc. 
    Each of these are more attuned to some things than others. Such as a Magical Race that dealt largely in Dimensional magics (who would have left behind magical items related, such as Bags of Holding, Teleportations, Gates, Summonings, etc. 
    They each have their own histories to help a Player understand where things might be found (certain Dungeons or regions related to certain stories). 

    Ok, so you're a newb.
    You enter the game world on the grounds of a College, where your character has been receiving their education (whatever skills you chose to start out with). A "teacher" is in front of you and assigns you various tasks to get you used to the controls and some of what you can do to interact in the game world (remember, "highly interactive game world"). A basic tutorial.

    After that, this "teacher" tells you that your educational funding has fallen a bit short. To make up for that, they tell you to go to a nearby Dungeon and collect a set of Reagents that the college can use in training new students. That will cover your debt to the college. 
    The teacher also explains to you:
    "Beware of other adventurers around you, the unscrupulous kinds might leave you to face your enemies alone, causing your demise, wherein they can rush in to kill you weakened enemy and take what you might have gained." (Or worse, in some game designs). 

    But he also tells you that while you're there, to look at the wall relief in the second room. To see that it tells a story of where the original builders came from, and that that place would offer more of what you find here, plus even more related to the Builders. He tells you that it's a good place to explore next, if you want. 
    And that you can recognize the next place by the strange looking mountain peak in the background. (A basic map, available in any general store, will show this.) 
    "But it's not always this easy", he says. 

    He also tells you that once you enter, you'll see 2 passages to more rooms, and that the "second room" is in one of these. He says that you'll understand when you get there. 

    The Dungeon:
    This Dungeon is close to civilization, so it's not as hard as those found farther away. 
    But it still has levels that you can go down into, and each level gets harder, and more rewarding. 
    The top level is designed for Newbs. 
    It's only a short walk away.
    You get there and enter. You immediately recognize (if you've read the basic game Lore) that this Dungeon was originally built by a race of King Cobra Men. There are king cobra snakes carved on pillars and walls. 
    There's no MOBs here. You see the two passages that lead further in. In one passageway, the construction style changes from the snakes to what you might recognize from the Lore as Ogre Magi. That's not the right one for the "second room." But you can go there if you want, the MOBs will be the same. You can explore this area, though, for clues to Ogre Magi related stuff, too. Or come back another time for that. 

    You make your way to the second room, fight MOBs (mostly regular Snake Men, serpents, and the like), look at the wall relief, and generally get an idea of playing this game. 
    You can go further into the Dungeon in either direction, King Cobra Men side or Ogre Magi side. You may recognize more ideas of where you might want to go next. 

    Eventually you go back to the city, sell loot, buy stuff, make stuff, whatever, and pay your debt to the College if you want to. 
    From there, you're on your own. Hopefully you'd be excited about this new game. 

    You may also find things such as ancient tomes that offer clues for where to go for a variety of reasons. Items, spells, knowledge of new Lore, etc., all might be things to search for, with hints directly included or through the game's Lore. 
    BrainyAlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,457
    Akulas said:
    Just put me in the middle of nowhere and let me figure it out. 

    My favorite way to play an MMO!
    DibdabsAlBQuirkyeoloe
  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 3,107
    Akulas said:
    Just put me in the middle of nowhere and let me figure it out. 

    My favorite way to play an MMO!
    Exactly.  I guess some players like being led by the hand along linear quest trails that will be the same for every character they ever make in their game.  Weird.
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 1,482
    I'll try to give an example of a Newbie tutorial that would include a brief Dungeon Run, to get new players familiar with this concept. 
     
    I like how you did that quest.  However for myself, I am glad its optional.  I hate reading things in game.  I hate reading lore.  Although I do like the idea that if I'm stuck, there is a way to get moving again.

    Nothing worse than just standing their wondering what you are supposed to do.

    I felt this way in Wurm, I figured I would need a tool like a knife or axe but had no clue how to make one.  Where was iron/stone? How to carve a handle without a knife.  What parts do you need to make an axe? How do I even use this UI etc...

    There has to be a minimum amount of "optional" direction to get things going.
    AmarantharAlBQuirky
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,331
    edited October 2022
    Brainy said:
    I'll try to give an example of a Newbie tutorial that would include a brief Dungeon Run, to get new players familiar with this concept. 
     
    I like how you did that quest.  However for myself, I am glad its optional.  I hate reading things in game.  I hate reading lore.  Although I do like the idea that if I'm stuck, there is a way to get moving again.

    Nothing worse than just standing their wondering what you are supposed to do.

    I felt this way in Wurm, I figured I would need a tool like a knife or axe but had no clue how to make one.  Where was iron/stone? How to carve a handle without a knife.  What parts do you need to make an axe? How do I even use this UI etc...

    There has to be a minimum amount of "optional" direction to get things going.
    Thanks. 
    I like reading Lore once in a while, but I'll agree that constantly having to do that is a drag on game play. 
    I think there's ways to make it a quick search. 
    Images help a lot, so using them to help a player find a Lore section is desirable. 
    That room with the snake decor, for example, just go to the front page of Races and scan down to find that image style. Easy-peasy. 
    A lot of that Players will learn as they go and not even need to look it up.
    But imagine being experienced, and knowing the decor style of all the known races by memory, and then finding a new one that no one knows yet in an undiscovered Dungeon.  
    Names (for anything), do a search. 

    I think it's important to remember that all of this is a simulation of "realism." 
    It's for the feel of it all, not the actual heavy burden. 

    However, I do think that there should be some very special "quests" for lost Artifacts of great power, and those should be much more challenging. But in the way of "many discoveries", and explorations of the world to find things that lack the normal "direction" such as this. 
    This idea is the common way, for most things that are given away as rewards in other games. 

    And making a knife or axe, or other things, I think that the "how to" should be like any other game. Instant directions. 
    But making special items, enchanted or better quality in some way that's not commonly known, that should fall under "experimentation."  


    BrainyAlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

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