VR is the objective future of MMORPGs and nothing can stop it.

LunoTrickster34

There's nothing more important to an MMORPG than the ability to feel like you are an unique character in an emergent and socially engaging game world. VR will always do this best.

VR will improve the social aspects that people find lacking today because people will be much more inclined to seek others out.

VR will improve the one dimensional gameplay style that many MMOs have today since you will have to pay more attention.

VR will improve the escapism/immersion aspect and you'll be able to live basically a second life if you want to.

VR will improve your character/individualism by allowing you to express yourself much more and give you much greater agency in the world.

I expect that in the 2030s, VR will dominant MMOs and the idea of playing such games on a monitor will be laughably archaic and passed off as retrogaming. Obviously by that point all the current issues of VR will be fixed and no I'm not talking about some silly Matrix brain interface because that's fantasy, I'm talking about headsets like out of the movie Ready Player One.

delete5230

Population 10
20,000 others recovering from nausea 

LunoTrickster34

delete5230 said:

Population 10
20,000 others recovering from nausea 

It's a good thing that nausea is improving/reducing as time goes on with hardware and software advancements. By 2030, the time when true AAA VRMMORPGs release, it won't be much of an issue.

LunoTrickster34

Demogorgon said:

Are people that disconnected from reality now a days?

RPO is just that, a MOVIE. Come on dude, get real.

The problem with VR are many and not all rooted in tech, but in how the human body works.

The only real immersive experience I can think of are, like you already mention, a Matrix style neural interface (maybe a less invasive one can be used but still... we are far from that & I garantee you that not everyone are going to want it ) or a Star Trek style holodeck, which would cost way too much for individual/civilian use.

You are ofc free to dream. Just don't hold your breath for it to happen, it wont, not how you seem to think it will (RPO style).

To the ppl that thinks that VR is great right now... well LoL and we'll agree to disagree. We just don't have the same definition of what "good" is.

I have a lot more hope in AR for the near future and not really for gaming, more as tool to enhance work or general everyday use.  

What do you mean by real immersive? Like a really immersive experience or something that is fundamentally so immersive that it's basically real. Why would anyone need the latter just to enjoy VR? It's like saying you can't enjoy an MMO today unless it's the most immersive game ever created out of all the games available so far, and runs at 8K 240Hz or something crazy like that.

RPO is easy to achieve... all you need is the perfect form of a VR headset and haptic gloves. Done. That's doable by around 2030.

AR is great but I'm not sure why you're bringing it up in this discussion if you're not talking about it from a gaming perspective?

LunoTrickster34

Demogorgon said:

LunoTrickster34 said:

Demogorgon said:

Are people that disconnected from reality now a days?

RPO is just that, a MOVIE. Come on dude, get real.

The problem with VR are many and not all rooted in tech, but in how the human body works.

The only real immersive experience I can think of are, like you already mention, a Matrix style neural interface (maybe a less invasive one can be used but still... we are far from that & I garantee you that not everyone are going to want it ) or a Star Trek style holodeck, which would cost way too much for individual/civilian use.

You are ofc free to dream. Just don't hold your breath for it to happen, it wont, not how you seem to think it will (RPO style).

To the ppl that thinks that VR is great right now... well LoL and we'll agree to disagree. We just don't have the same definition of what "good" is.

I have a lot more hope in AR for the near future and not really for gaming, more as tool to enhance work or general everyday use.  

What do you mean by real immersive? Like a really immersive experience or something that is fundamentally so immersive that it's basically real. Why would anyone need the latter just to enjoy VR? It's like saying you can't enjoy an MMO today unless it's the most immersive game ever created out of all the games available so far, and runs at 8K 240Hz or something crazy like that.

RPO is easy to achieve... all you need is the perfect form of a VR headset and haptic gloves. Done. That's doable by around 2030.

AR is great but I'm not sure why you're bringing it up in this discussion if you're not talking about it from a gaming perspective?

Read again, we'll agree to disagree... You can dream, idc. I'm not here to argue with a dreamer though, it is pointless to me. My thoughts on this have been shared, take it or leave it. Have a good day. 

Read again? You never clarified. Are you looking for a Matrix level of VR or will you accept something less but still more advanced than we have today? (RPO)

You shared your thoughts but I literally can't tell what you mean by them.

Quizzical

That VR future will get here sometime after the ubiquitous flying cars that are a few decades overdue by now.  The future finds ways to laugh at your predictions about it.

Narug

Businesses are already training their employees with VR so of course it has gained importance.

Valve is making a half life game with it so that should mean its gaining traction.

I might see a relevant online game in VR in my lifetime.

Of course progress should go on, it's how you move forward.

As far as dreams go, if gaming as a concept isn't long since dead in the future, I hope when humans are traveling in space they're able to step into a holodeck.

LunoTrickster34

Quizzical said:

That VR future will get here sometime after the ubiquitous flying cars that are a few decades overdue by now.  The future finds ways to laugh at your predictions about it.

Kind of like how touchscreens were never going to happen throughout all the decades of sci-fi touch screens, right?

Wait, nevermind touchscreens are everywhere.

LunoTrickster34

coretex666 said:

LunoTrickster34 said:

delete5230 said:

Population 10
20,000 others recovering from nausea 

It's a good thing that nausea is improving/reducing as time goes on with hardware and software advancements. By 2030, the time when true AAA VRMMORPGs release, it won't be much of an issue.

If the true AAA VRMMORPGs were to release by 2030, they would soon need to start being developed.

AAAs are almost always built by big corps. In order for a project to get a green light, it has to have a business case showing its worth it for the corp to allocate resources to this project over the other ones due to higher ROI and / or other benefits. 

I dont think presently, there are such business cases being put together. I think investing couple hundred mil USD into a VR MMORPG could be quite a gamble that the corps simply dont take.

I think VR has to become much more mainstream before corps start considering making AAA VRMMORPGs.

5 years for VR to be a big enough investment and 5 years of development. 2030 still seems reasonable to me.

Ungood

LunoTrickster34 said:

There's nothing more important to an MMORPG than the ability to feel like you are an unique character in an emergent and socially engaging game world. VR will always do this best.

VR will improve the social aspects that people find lacking today because people will be much more inclined to seek others out.

VR will improve the one dimensional gameplay style that many MMOs have today since you will have to pay more attention.

VR will improve the escapism/immersion aspect and you'll be able to live basically a second life if you want to.

VR will improve your character/individualism by allowing you to express yourself much more and give you much greater agency in the world.

I expect that in the 2030s, VR will dominant MMOs and the idea of playing such games on a monitor will be laughably archaic and passed off as retrogaming. Obviously by that point all the current issues of VR will be fixed and no I'm not talking about some silly Matrix brain interface because that's fantasy, I'm talking about headsets like out of the movie Ready Player One.

I fully believe the future of MMO's will be VR.

They already have bidirectional walking platforms and the like, couple that with full body tracking, and no doubt, we will be looking at some kind of Ready Player One level of game experience coming up.

Godeau

I really don't mind and welcome VR and AR becoming the future, but if i have to puke and feel like sh!t every 15mins of gameplay, then forget it

LunoTrickster34

Ungood said:

LunoTrickster34 said:

There's nothing more important to an MMORPG than the ability to feel like you are an unique character in an emergent and socially engaging game world. VR will always do this best.

VR will improve the social aspects that people find lacking today because people will be much more inclined to seek others out.

VR will improve the one dimensional gameplay style that many MMOs have today since you will have to pay more attention.

VR will improve the escapism/immersion aspect and you'll be able to live basically a second life if you want to.

VR will improve your character/individualism by allowing you to express yourself much more and give you much greater agency in the world.

I expect that in the 2030s, VR will dominant MMOs and the idea of playing such games on a monitor will be laughably archaic and passed off as retrogaming. Obviously by that point all the current issues of VR will be fixed and no I'm not talking about some silly Matrix brain interface because that's fantasy, I'm talking about headsets like out of the movie Ready Player One.

I fully believe the future of MMO's will be VR.

They already have bidirectional walking platforms and the like, couple that with full body tracking, and no doubt, we will be looking at some kind of Ready Player One level of game experience coming up.

Nah, Ready Player One is just a movie and it's totally impossible, at least someone here says.

I agree but we probably won't need the treadmills to walk on. I think locomotion will still be driven the way it is today in most cases but with a much lower chance of sickness due to higher refresh rates, some extra headset calibrations for anti-sickness, and better comfort options.

Asm0deus

Quizzical said:

That VR future will get here sometime after the ubiquitous flying cars that are a few decades overdue by now.  The future finds ways to laugh at your predictions about it.

True and not always like you think it will either, I mean back in my youth people laughed at others that said eventually we will have to buy or prefer bottled water in some places......and yet

maskedweasel

2030 is way too soon for a VR MMO. Way too soon. Even at best, let's say haptic feedback came out polished and perfect yesterday, and proper motion connections (rigs) were perfected and the price dropped substantially tomorrow, you still have several dozen other issues preventing the release of any premiere VRMMOs.

Affordability is better for the mobile sets, but the mobile sets are still constrained on what they can play. You'd have to find a way to bridge that gap. Even if they came out with that set next week, that's 8K, and lighter than a feather, what about batteries?

At best, a mobile set in high usage gets almost 2 hours of use, if you're lucky. MMOs, you play consistently for many multiple hours, and the battery technology would have to exist. Lets pretend graphene batteries (that extend power, not just reduce charge time) finally hit the market last week, you still have to worry about the length of time it takes to actually create an MMO. 

MMO development time can take anywhere from 5 - 8 years. You would have to have a company that not only understands how to create an MMO, but they would also need to know how to work efficiently in MMOs, along with all this new technology, haptic feedback, real movement rigs, etc. And even if we pretend that there was a team of VRMMO specialists, who went back in time to start development of said MMO, and they have that MMO ready to go with the launch of this magical new VR system, you still have to figure in the fact that the MMO would NEED to appeal to everyone so that people would buy into the system. 

Current MMO estimates, even at their best, pales in comparison to every demographic in every other game. Mobile games, console games, even the PS Portable sold more, and I don't know anyone aside from myself who owned one. Just from what they sold in 2007 outpaces everything all inclusive VR sets have sold, ever.

So you would need multiple AAA, interesting, well crafted games to garner any kind of mass appeal to so many people. Even if you did, EVEN if you had multiple imaginary studios that opened up and crafted these MMOs in the past and they all released with these new sets, you still have to factor in demand, saturation rates and cost of ownership. 



So yeah, even if the stars aligned on this one, this week, you have years before it factors in as a mainstream appliance. Because none of these things exist, and time travel isn't real, 2030 is a complete no go. 

Now you can say "But we have tethered VR sets, and current mobile sets, and there are MMOs already on there or being created, or studios can port their games to VR" 

Nothing in their current iteration will bring people to VR faster. Who is going to pay for a 300 dollar headset (at best) to play FFXIV in VR, and over 1500 dollars at worst, depending on the kind of set you choose?  Not very many, or else games with hefty followings, such as fallout 4 VR would have garnered a much bigger following.  But while sales are getting better for mobile VR sets, tethered VR has become pretty stagnant. 


So, TL:DR, no way will we see any kind of "VR revolution" by 2030. In 10 years you may see AR HMDs and expanded battery performance. 2050 for VR? Possible. 

cheyane

I'll be dead by the time they actually make something both comfortable with no side effects and affordable for the average player. People can hardly afford to keep upgrading their computers I cannot see this price factor being satisfied in 10 years... pipe dream.

LunoTrickster34

maskedweasel said:

2030 is way too soon for a VR MMO. Way too soon. Even at best, let's say haptic feedback came out polished and perfect yesterday, and proper motion connections (rigs) were perfected and the price dropped substantially tomorrow, you still have several dozen other issues preventing the release of any premiere VRMMOs.

Affordability is better for the mobile sets, but the mobile sets are still constrained on what they can play. You'd have to find a way to bridge that gap. Even if they came out with that set next week, that's 8K, and lighter than a feather, what about batteries?

At best, a mobile set in high usage gets almost 2 hours of use, if you're lucky. MMOs, you play consistently for many multiple hours, and the battery technology would have to exist. Lets pretend graphene batteries (that extend power, not just reduce charge time) finally hit the market last week, you still have to worry about the length of time it takes to actually create an MMO. 

MMO development time can take anywhere from 5 - 8 years. You would have to have a company that not only understands how to create an MMO, but they would also need to know how to work efficiently in MMOs, along with all this new technology, haptic feedback, real movement rigs, etc. And even if we pretend that there was a team of VRMMO specialists, who went back in time to start development of said MMO, and they have that MMO ready to go with the launch of this magical new VR system, you still have to figure in the fact that the MMO would NEED to appeal to everyone so that people would buy into the system. 

Current MMO estimates, even at their best, pales in comparison to every demographic in every other game. Mobile games, console games, even the PS Vita sold more, and I don't know anyone aside from myself who owned one. Just from what they sold in 2007 outpaces everything all inclusive VR sets have sold, ever.

So you would need multiple AAA, interesting, well crafted games to garner any kind of mass appeal to so many people. Even if you did, EVEN if you had multiple imaginary studios that opened up and crafted these MMOs in the past and they all released with these new sets, you still have to factor in demand, saturation rates and cost of ownership. 



So yeah, even if the stars aligned on this one, this week, you have years before it factors in as a mainstream appliance. Because none of these things exist, and time travel isn't real, 2030 is a complete no go. 

Now you can say "But we have tethered VR sets, and current mobile sets, and there are MMOs already on there or being created, or studios can port their games to VR" 

Nothing in their current iteration will bring people to VR faster. Who is going to pay for a 300 dollar headset (at best) to play FFXIV in VR, and over 1500 dollars at worst, depending on the kind of set you choose?  Not very many, or else games with hefty followings, such as fallout 4 VR would have garnered a much bigger following.  But while sales are getting better for mobile VR sets, tethered VR has become pretty stagnant. 


So, TL:DR, no way will we see any kind of "VR revolution" by 2030. In 10 years you may see AR HMDs and expanded battery performance. 2050 for VR? Possible. 

5-8 years? You could still have something very tangible made in 5 years. No one said this has to be the most perfect MMO to grace the land, it just needs to be a true AAA VRMMO. The WoW of VR can be a few years later.

I think the hardest part is designing for VR and I agree that will be a challenge but it was also brand new territory for the first MMOs back in the day as well.


And tethered VR hasn't become stagnant. It's grown faster than it ever has in the past few months, the opposite of stagnation.

https://www.roadtovr.com/steam-survey-vr-headset-growth-january-2020/
https://www.roadtovr.com/2019-major-inflection-point-vr-heres-proof/amp/

cameltosis

I both agree and disagree.

I fully agree that the future of MMORPGs (and all gaming) is in virtual reality.

I disagree that what we have now (headsets) is virtual reality.

When the technology reaches a point where I can grip a sword in VR and feel it in my hand, then swing a sword and feel it connect with something. When I can walk my legs in real life and have my legs move in VR. When I can sit in an F1 car in VR and feel the vibrations of the engine in real life....

That's when we'll have achieved virtual reality. That's when it'll take off in a big way. That's when it will be meaningful and revolutionise the gaming world....and the world in general.

Until then, headsets are just a different way to view the game, they don't change the gameplay at all. If you also use motion controllers, then that does change the gameplay, changes it into something more visceral but ultimately simpler that what is already possible.

LunoTrickster34

cheyane said:

I'll be dead by the time they actually make something both comfortable with no side effects and affordable for the average player. People can hardly afford to keep upgrading their computers I cannot see this price factor being satisfied in 10 years... pipe dream.

Oculus already unveiled a headset prototype name Half Dome 3 which fits your definition. It causes no side effects and is much more lightweight.



The funny thing is that monitors now cause more side effects than that above headset.

cheyane

LunoTrickster34 said:

cheyane said:

I'll be dead by the time they actually make something both comfortable with no side effects and affordable for the average player. People can hardly afford to keep upgrading their computers I cannot see this price factor being satisfied in 10 years... pipe dream.

Oculus already unveiled a headset prototype name Half Dome 3 which fits your definition. It causes no side effects and is much more lightweight.



The funny thing is that monitors now cause more side effects than that above headset.

I get ill from first person shooters and car rides. I doubt that very much.

Quizzical

LunoTrickster34 said:

Quizzical said:

That VR future will get here sometime after the ubiquitous flying cars that are a few decades overdue by now.  The future finds ways to laugh at your predictions about it.

Kind of like how touchscreens were never going to happen throughout all the decades of sci-fi touch screens, right?

Wait, nevermind touchscreens are everywhere.

There's quite a difference between saying "I think VR MMORPGs will become common" and "VR is the objective future of MMORPGs and nothing can stop it."  The latter is what I object to.

I think VR gaming has a future, and probably as a more widespread technology than the small niches where it is today.  I'm skeptical of any particular date that you want to put on it just because the future isn't very predictable.  It could easily be that some great game drives a ton of interest in VR, like how so many other genres of games were popularized or even created by a single, very successful game.  But I have no idea when such a game will show up.

But non-VR gaming isn't going away, as there are too many situations where someone would like to play a game but needs to also be aware of the world around them.  If anything, the movement in recent years has been toward less immersive gaming that you can do on a cell phone now and then in small chunks of time.

immodium

Not in it's current state. Far in the future when you can jack your brain directly into the experience like The Matrix. Until I can touch, taste and smell the environment I'm in I'm not interested in VR.

Kyleran

LunoTrickster34 said:

Quizzical said:

That VR future will get here sometime after the ubiquitous flying cars that are a few decades overdue by now.  The future finds ways to laugh at your predictions about it.

Kind of like how touchscreens were never going to happen throughout all the decades of sci-fi touch screens, right?

Wait, nevermind touchscreens are everywhere.

Never once heard someone say touch screens weren't possible, if you are going to straw man try harder.

Where the hell are my anti gravity powered jet packs and ship to surface transporters?

LunoTrickster34

cameltosis said:

I both agree and disagree.

I fully agree that the future of MMORPGs (and all gaming) is in virtual reality.

I disagree that what we have now (headsets) is virtual reality.

When the technology reaches a point where I can grip a sword in VR and feel it in my hand, then swing a sword and feel it connect with something. When I can walk my legs in real life and have my legs move in VR. When I can sit in an F1 car in VR and feel the vibrations of the engine in real life....

That's when we'll have achieved virtual reality. That's when it'll take off in a big way. That's when it will be meaningful and revolutionise the gaming world....and the world in general.

Until then, headsets are just a different way to view the game, they don't change the gameplay at all. If you also use motion controllers, then that does change the gameplay, changes it into something more visceral but ultimately simpler that what is already possible.

Have you even used VR before? Because you should at least try to understand what you're talking about. All definitions of virtual reality since it was coined or at least popularized by Jaren Lanier suggest that it involves the process of being immersed in a simulated environment in which presence can be induced, which is a state that many people can attest to experiencing today.

Presence means your subconscious fully buys into this virtual reality as if it's real, and that happens without crazy haptics, without lifelike visuals, without a perfect headset.

VR changes gameplay in ways that make gaming better, objectively. This is a far better way to experience FPS games:

https://youtu.be/_zZgnfEMyNo

This is also a far better way to experience multiplayer competitive 1st person games:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14Ha7go6JQY

Those games play so differently to anything else that it's not even the same medium at that point.

AlBQuirky

I humbly disagree, but that's me. VR is a way to view the game, NOT a mechanic or feature. It doesn't change how a player fights, how a player  crafts, how oa player explores, or how a player interacts socially. VR won't save a shitty game.

However, since about 80% of game players today think graphics top all, you're [probably right.

Yet another reason "the future of MMOs" will pass me by...

LunoTrickster34

cheyane said:

LunoTrickster34 said:

cheyane said:

I'll be dead by the time they actually make something both comfortable with no side effects and affordable for the average player. People can hardly afford to keep upgrading their computers I cannot see this price factor being satisfied in 10 years... pipe dream.

Oculus already unveiled a headset prototype name Half Dome 3 which fits your definition. It causes no side effects and is much more lightweight.



The funny thing is that monitors now cause more side effects than that above headset.

I get ill from first person shooters and car rides. I doubt that very much.

Wait why is that relevant? It's not the same thing. I get sick in the car all the time but never in VR. I have friends that get sick in 1st person monitor games but not in VR.

The difference is that in VR you can avoid sickness by matching all the movement in the real and virtual worlds but developers don't go for this outside of VR.

LunoTrickster34

Quizzical said:

LunoTrickster34 said:

Quizzical said:

That VR future will get here sometime after the ubiquitous flying cars that are a few decades overdue by now.  The future finds ways to laugh at your predictions about it.

Kind of like how touchscreens were never going to happen throughout all the decades of sci-fi touch screens, right?

Wait, nevermind touchscreens are everywhere.

There's quite a difference between saying "I think VR MMORPGs will become common" and "VR is the objective future of MMORPGs and nothing can stop it."  The latter is what I object to.

I think VR gaming has a future, and probably as a more widespread technology than the small niches where it is today.  I'm skeptical of any particular date that you want to put on it just because the future isn't very predictable.  It could easily be that some great game drives a ton of interest in VR, like how so many other genres of games were popularized or even created by a single, very successful game.  But I have no idea when such a game will show up.

But non-VR gaming isn't going away, as there are too many situations where someone would like to play a game but needs to also be aware of the world around them.  If anything, the movement in recent years has been toward less immersive gaming that you can do on a cell phone now and then in small chunks of time.

Sure non-VR will always be here, I'm not debating that. I'm just saying that VR is going to be at the core of MMOs in the future and what most MMOs will be built on. Monitor based MMOs will become a niche because it's an objectively inferior platform for the genre. Some people like retrogaming today, but most people move on to the current and MMOs will follow that suit.

Don't forget that VR headsets will become MR headsets and let you see your surroundings very easily soon.